(no subject)

[stonebender]

serenejournal has met a few people recently who say they know me. In each case the people were what I would consider acquaintances. In one case I had met the person face-to-face maybe twice and exchanged perhaps a handful of words. In another case, I had "known" the person via e-mail for years but never had occasion to sit down and say more than hello or goodbye face-to-face. Even online we may have read each other's posts to a common mailing list, but hadn't had much interaction directly with each other.

Yet both people seemed to think they knew me well enough that they could make predictions about my preferences or habits. In my mind, I didn't know either of them well. Yes, I knew their names. Yes, I could point them out in a crowd but know them? I didn't think I knew either of them at all, nor they I.

Now in the last few years I have been trying to put myself out there more. Trying to make new friends and new connections. Much of this is complicated by my natural reticence to organize get-togethers at my place and the inaccessibility of most people's houses. I have attempted to be more active on newsgroups and mailing lists and here. I haven't been particularly successful in boosting my word count.

So I'm wondering what makes people feel like they know someone? How many people on my friends list think they know me? And how well? Of those who think they know me do I seem "like me" online? Is this whole subject just a pathetic attempt at attention?

Comments

[klwalton.livejournal.com]

I know you only well enough to know I'd like to know you better.

I can only speak to my own experience. There are people with whom I've been intimate who don't really know me. And people whom I've never met face-to-face who know me very, very well.

I think I start to feel that I know someone when I can predict with a large percentage of accuracy their opinions, reactions and behavior. I know someone to a deeper level when I start to understand what makes them happy, makes them feel loved, upsets them. All this depends on a high degree of communication over a period of time, though, y'know?

[stonebender.livejournal.com]

I know you only well enough to know I'd like to know you better.

Why thank you the feeling is mutual.

I can only speak to my own experience. There are people with whom I've been intimate who don't really know me. And people whom I've never met face-to-face who know me very, very well.

I think I start to feel that I know someone when I can predict with a large percentage of accuracy their opinions, reactions and behavior. I know someone to a deeper level when I start to understand what makes them happy, makes them feel loved, upsets them. All this depends on a high degree of communication over a period of time, though, y'know?

Yeah, that makes sense to me. When serenejournal and I were talking about it. We thought there were things about each other that we didn't even know yet and we had done a fair bit of communicating. I've known loracs as long as anybody outside my blood family and she still surprises me. There are really very few people that I feel I know very well. There is a larger number of people that I think I know. I just wonder where or how people decide when they know someone. I'm not completely sure I can answer my own question.

[sturgeonslawyer.livejournal.com]

H'mmmm. I tend to think the word "friend" is overused. It has a rather intimate (not necessarily physically intimate) connotation that I feel protective of, don't like to use it for very many people.

Well, I knew you better ten years or so ago, but I never knew you well and wouldn't have claimed to. Like frexample I would never have been able to guess your tastes/opinions except in a few very well defined areas. ("H'mmmm. A lot like Heinlein, but not so militaristic. I imagine stonebender would like this...") But, I'm sufficiently mind-blind that I have trouble doing that even for my Beloved Spousal Overunit and our kids.

The German language has a term - I have only heard it pronounced, I don't know how to spell it, something like "bekannte" - that means sort of, more than an "aquaintance," but less than a "friend." I consider lots of people "bekannten," very few people "friends." But I'll usually say "friend" because it's too hard to explain and I don't want to offend folks; you can never have too many "bekannten."

[stonebender.livejournal.com]

Before finding you on livejournal I don't remember having any regular contact with you since Sci-Fido II. I would see you every now and then at BayCon or hear about you through another science-fiction fan etc. I think fandom lends itself to the kind of confusion I'm feeling. There are gobs of people that I "know" from fandom and yet see once every year or two. Have a short "catch me up" kind of conversation and don't see again for another year or two.

"bekannten" is a useful concept. I would be happy to be considered a "bekannten" of yours. Thanks

[sturgeonslawyer.livejournal.com]

I think fandom lends itself to the kind of confusion I'm feeling.

That, and simple differences in memory - I seem to recall running into you at The Other Change (old store) or on the streets of Oakland every month or two ... h'mmm, my "ten years" was low: actually focusing on it, I'm thinking, say, mid-'80s. Often enough that two successive backpackhounds recognized me readily, at any rate, though their memories were probably than mine. And my sense of how far apart things are has always been a wee bit wonky. (Like, thinking of mid-'80s as "ten years or so ago.") I'm the sort of person who usually knows what time it is but rarely knows what time it was.

[stonebender.livejournal.com]

Well, memory being what it is I agree. Yes, we did run into each other at Other Change. When I used to practically live there, but I was thinking Sci-Fido II was after that. However my memory of when things happened is less than perfect.

[snippy]

They know you enough to feel safe making a mental model of you and using it to predict you. That's a different point for different people--I certainly don't think/feel/sense that I know you well enough to make a mental model, let alone use it to predict your preferences or behavior.

I second the commenter above who distinguishes between friends and casual acquaintances. I wish we had a better descriptive term for that in English, but then I also wish I knew better how to move from the casual acquaintance stage to the friend stage (and sometimes on into the close friend stage).

[stonebender.livejournal.com]

I also wish I knew better how to move from the casual acquaintance stage to the friend stage (and sometimes on into the close friend stage).

Yeah, that's a tricky transition.

[dawnd.livejournal.com]

I think I'd classify us as more than friendly acquantainces, but not much more at this time. We've had a few nice lunches (a while back at this point), and hung out in one another's presence at some other times over the years, but I still don't feel I know you well. That said, I feel like you present "like you" online, but of course I know only a relatively surface amount of you in both places.

Hope that's helpful?

[stonebender.livejournal.com]

Hope that's helpful?

Yes, it is thank you!

[serenejournal.livejournal.com]

I would agree that there's an element of "I have an idea how this person will think about this" to "knowing" them, but I think that can be deceptive, because people are so fluid. I do think, though, that if a person consistently tells me (or indicates in some way to me) that I have been correct in some assumption about them, I start feeling as though I know them.

Of course, there's also the classic, "Oh, you know me so well!" from someone.

[stonebender.livejournal.com]

Of course, there's also the classic, "Oh, you know me so well!" from someone.

That's what startles me, when they say that and are so clearly wrong.

[leback.livejournal.com]

In the usual way it comes up in social contexts, I think knowing someone usually just means being acquainted with them--having had enough interaction that you can identify them and know they can identify you, and expecting to have such interaction in the future (else, it would be "used to know"). At least, that's what I assume is meant by "Oh, you went to $school? Did you know so-and-so?" or "Oh, you're into $hobby? I know a guy on LJ who posts a lot about that." It doesn't, IME, tend to imply any especially deep or personal knowledge.

So I would, in that context, say I know you. I wouldn't claim to know you well, certainly not well enough to make specific predictions...although I guess I'd make some fairly general predictions, such that I'd be startled if people attributed certain ideas or behaviors to you. (For example, I'd be fairly disbelieving if someone said you'd been making sexist or racist comments, or flaming newbies on a mailing list...) I guess I'd say I know you well enough to think you're generally pretty cool. :-)

[stonebender.livejournal.com]

In the usual way it comes up in social contexts, I think knowing someone usually just means being acquainted with them--having had enough interaction that you can identify them and know they can identify you, and expecting to have such interaction in the future (else, it would be "used to know"). At least, that's what I assume is meant by "Oh, you went to $school? Did you know so-and-so?" or "Oh, you're into $hobby? I know a guy on LJ who posts a lot about that." It doesn't, IME, tend to imply any especially deep or personal knowledge.

I think that's part of what's tripping me up. There is the I know someone well enough to identify the person and maybe know a little bit about them. Where they work. Who's connected to them. Then there is the I know someone well enough to call them and hang out. I know them well enough to have some history or common stories.

At least one of the people who said they knew me, seemed to claim much more knowledge of me than I would have expected. It seemed odd because when serenejournal mentioned it my first reaction was, "that person would have no idea what my preference would be." It just felt weird.

So I would, in that context, say I know you. I wouldn't claim to know you well, certainly not well enough to make specific predictions...although I guess I'd make some fairly general predictions, such that I'd be startled if people attributed certain ideas or behaviors to you. (For example, I'd be fairly disbelieving if someone said you'd been making sexist or racist comments, or flaming newbies on a mailing list...) I guess I'd say I know you well enough to think you're generally pretty cool. :-)

Why thank you! Even though I don't reply to many of your alt.poly posts, you always bring a kind and well considered perspective to the group. I often find myself wanting to have said something similar to what you have written. I look forward to someday sitting down and having a nice long talk. I think you're pretty nifty yourself.

[firecat]

I almost never feel like I know someone well. At first it's because we haven't spent enough time together, and later on it's because the more time I spend with them, the more layers keep opening up in them.

As far as predictions/preferences are concerned, sometimes I can make educated guesses about some things a person will like or do. Other times, even if I know someone for years I can't figure out a lot of their preferences. For example, I found it easy to buy presents for the OH's mother even before I had spent much time with her - I just had an intuitive understanding of what she would like (even though there are other things about her I didn't, and don't, know). But I still find it hard to buy presents for my mother even though I've known her 43 years.

Yes, you seem "like you" online. IMO/IME, it's also true that your online persona and your "meatspace" persona each have unique aspects that don't get through in the other medium - but that's true for most people.

Is this whole subject just a pathetic attempt at attention?

OK, this bit seemed characteristic... :-)

[stonebender.livejournal.com]

I almost never feel like I know someone well. At first it's because we haven't spent enough time together, and later on it's because the more time I spend with them, the more layers keep opening up in them.

I'm not quite where you're at but I'm always aware that my opinions of people are completely provisional. There are only a half dozen people I feel I know well.

Yes, you seem "like you" online. IMO/IME, it's also true that your online persona and your "meatspace" persona each have unique aspects that don't get through in the other medium - but that's true for most people.


Is this whole subject just a pathetic attempt at attention?

OK, this bit seemed characteristic... :-)

Self-effacing humor? Me? :-)